Seth is an entrepreneur, best-selling author, and speaker. [8] He also serves as a director and executive producer on the Netflix series Atypical. He has recently completed consulting projects for the Nielsen Norman Group and Razorfish. He was a director and executive producer on NBC's Marry Me. Contact Us | Card sorting variant. On the other end of the spectrum, which this technique doesn’t study as closely, is attitudinal research, which studies what people think. In my experience, while results have been mostly positive, there was one time when things didn’t work so well. 20 minutes for debrief / wrap-up. Seth Gordon is on Facebook. If you have a chance to apply this technique, I’d be interested in hearing what works well for you, what doesn’t, and any suggestions for how to refine it. By extending the 80/20 principal to the Internet, one may make general assumptions like: And, carrying the extension one step further to user research, it’s reasonable to assume the following: a well planned consolidated assessment contributes insight into a majority of user experience issues —including scenario development, site organization, and site/page flow. This 80/20 approach to consolidated assessment works well for general consumer sites and applications where the risks are relatively low or easily remedied. I don’t trust mission critical applications that involve national security, management of large sums of money, or diagnosis of medical conditions to systems built using the 80/20 principal. We first ask the user to construct a logical task sequence that incorporates the key steps in the scenario they defined. The information respondents believe they need to reach the goal; note that some information comes from external offline sources. Boxes and Arrows is a volunteer-run publication. Seth Godin's Blog on marketing, tribes and respect But first, let’s understand some words… Bitcoin is not the blockchain. To understand the evolution of this approach, it’s important to understand my general philosophy of user research and site design: the 80/20 principal. Seth is ill-tempered and easily provoked. The researcher is hoping to learn what situations a person encounters during an activity. Gordon is also attached to produce through his banner Exhibit A Films. Here is an example outline for your report: Seth Gordon uses his understanding of user research and IA to improve user experiences and solve business problems. He has directed the films Four Christmases (2008), Horrible Bosses (2011), Identity Thief (2013) and Baywatch (2017). More time does not usually bring us to more accurate responses. Had I done a practice run or two with the scripts (piloting) before testing, I would have known this. About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features If ever there was a principal that applies beyond its original definition, this is it. To sound like a real clinician, throw around terms like mental model or cognitive relationship. Items that are consistently grouped together, Items that can be grouped in multiple categories, Learning what content and tools people need to understand and complete tasks, Having users sequence page flows and prioritize page elements, Page level schematics for key pages in the scenario. Just because it doesn’t happen online doesn’t mean it’s not worth knowing about —we still need to capture that information. The findings from this type of evaluation lean strongly toward the behavioral side of user research, which studies what people do. Think buying and selling stocks on Etrade vs. using the Black and Scholes Option Pricing calculator. 20% of a site’s errors account for 80% of poor user experiences. Seth Gordon Erik Klose Jeremy Knox Jean Moreau Texting groupchat Chaos Ensues Seth Gordon Lives Swearing AU but only for like 1 chapter Summary Basically, it's just a … Getty Images Or it is used to establish document or merchandise categories and related items. Visit him at www.gordy.com, where there isn’t a drop of content about user experience. The more realistic the scenario, the easier it is for respondents to provide firsthand feedback. Since this kind of site is targeted toward a specific group of users, it’s important that respondents are well screened. Materials Required: Labeled cards for sorting. Time: 1.5 – 2 hours James Franco and Seth Rogen pose together at the 2018 Golden Globes. Dog Drop me a line, or discuss in the forum here. Actionable recommendations for IA and content. In short, the technique is a simple exercise in grouping like items that share attributes. He has also directed several episodes of television series like The Office, Parks and Recreation, Modern Family, Atypical and For All Mankind. OddLot has attached Horrible Bosses director Seth Gordon to helm Queen of Hearts, about Lewis Carroll. Actually, that’s how old I was when I first started card sorting in the late 1970s. One way to gain this efficiency is to integrate three techniques —scenario design, card sorting, and participatory design —into a single session. Report Highlights: There will be no shortage of discussion material to include in the final report. Pre-test the evaluation script to make sure that it flows well and that it can be completed within the timeframe users will be given. He has recently completed consulting projects for the Nielsen Norman Group and Razorfish. a travel booking tool and teasers to interesting articles on the front page). Seth Godin is the author of more than a dozen bestsellers that have changed the way people think about marketing, leadership, and change, including Permission Marketing , Purple Cow , All Marketers Are Liars , Small is the New Big , The Dip , Tribes , Linchpin, and Poke the Box. This format isn’t designed for introspection. Variation 1: Ask them to add details to the supplied scenario so that it’s more relevant to them. 20% of a site’s features account for 80% of use cases. That includes sites built around scenarios and activities rather than simple document retrieval (for which pure card sorting is well suited). Sure, it can yield effective results, but there is also opportunity for misinterpretation. The 80/20 principal —Pareto’s Principal I can only imagine how delighted Vilfredo would be to know his work is quoted on websites about site architecture and design. By and large, this type of testing has worked well for me, both in terms of getting good insight, and in terms of communicating findings to clients. Big sticky poster board works well too. A reasonable case could be made for either positioning. Once they make a choice, they need to stay with it, rather than overanalyze and edit. One of the six will most likely be a no show or not much of a communicator. The goal here is to research and book a vacation. Our sample travel site offers the following main features: Online booking, email alerts for price reductions, a vacation planning wizard, and a very sophisticated search. It might be a matter of determining what items belong on a page and the relative prominence they should receive. Participatory Design – summarized Their gut reactions are usually right. The evaluation would probably work just as well by altering the order of steps 2 (Card Sort) and 3 (Participatory Design). Which are helpful but not required? Rather, we want to run with user gut reactions. An example might read as follows: You and your wife are planning a vacation. Participatory design is exactly what it sounds like. Don’t worry, you’ll always be able to come back and iron out those smaller points later. RSS, Authors | [4] Gordon directed the pilot of Sneaky Pete for Amazon Studios, which he also produces with Bryan Cranston and David Shore. Seth Godin is the author of nineteen international bestsellers that have been translated into over 35 languages, and have changed the way people think about marketing and work. Assuming these three activities happen during the course of a project, they are usually handled separately. Our goal here, which is loftier, is to relate content items to specific tasks, not each other. Sort of like the Color Forms where people and objects are slapped down onto a background. There is no one correct way to conduct a consolidated assessment, so you’ll want to explore variations that are best suited to your particular project environment. Even if the user lands on the site by chance, let’s assume the site clearly states what it offers and the user is so engaged they jump right in and decide to explore. Seth Gordon (born July 15, 1976) is an American film director, producer, screenwriter, and film editor. They have an idea of what they are looking for, so it is an example of known item or known task based site usage. booking engine from Expedia, promotion section from hotwire.com, and content from Lonely Planet). Step 1- scenario definition and selection [6], In 2009, Gordon developed and directed a video series focusing on the threat posed by cybercrime to Internet users, H*Commerce: The Business of Hacking You, sponsored by antivirus software company McAfee. Step 3 —Participatory paper design Scenario development doesn’t work if respondents are required to fantasize about the hypothetical or work through scenarios that don’t apply to them. Logistics planning and recruiting only need to happen once. “Consolidated Assessment” isn’t necessarily the right phrase for what is discussed here, but it’s the first one that comes to mind. Sometimes the testing reveals things that you knew along. What do they go offline for? In particular, I’m interested to know how well it works in areas outside of travel. “Art is what we call... the thing an artist does. Menu and widgets [1] Later, he helped shoot Barbara Kopple and Cecilia Peck's Dixie Chicks documentary Shut Up & Sing,[1] and after working as cinematographer, editor and producer on various films, he gained prominence with his documentary The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters. The evaluation should move relatively quickly. 10 minutes for orientation [2] Upon returning to Yale, Gordon taught himself how to edit his footage on an Avid editing machine. This is understanding through observation. What’s missing? At the conclusion of the research, we will have generated the following artifacts: Audience assumptions: Users of travel sites usually arrive with specific goalsthat are either task-related or fact-finding. Variation 1: Don’t provide any cards. But can you imagine the value and time savings of combining them? Think not being able to find a unique hotmail e-mail account address under 10 letters vs. trying to add too many names to the address book. Not that I’ve been in the research field that long, card sorting just seemed a natural thing to do with my baseball card collection. Direct user quotes, photos, and artifacts go a long way to constructing a compelling report. They were stuck in a rut and I wasn’t able to nudge them out of it. Sign-in, Boxes and Arrows 2001-17, Boxes and Arrows LLC 2017-18 - All Rights Reserved, uses his understanding of user research and IA to improve user experiences and solve business problems. Watch how users sequence their information needs. Remain flexible. Broad research goal: The broad research goal is to understand how users approach the process of online travel planning and how these issues can be resolved online. We’re not talking about finding articles, but going through a set of steps to complete a task. The romantic action adventure is based on an idea by Seth Gordon, with an updated script from Dana Fox. If the blockchain is a printing press, Bitcoin is a kind of paper money. You will find that a 100% fit between all items in a group can’t be established all the time. Related Story 'Big Man On Campus' Docuseries On Hoops Phenom Makur Maker Set At Apple TV+; Seth Gordon Directs Written by Kyle, the limited series will … We want realistic scenarios with personal relevance to the respondent. When that happens, consider it validation and reinforcement —two things you can never have too much of. Sorts can be based on documents, concepts, tools, similar tasks, or just about anything that can be grouped. Once we have an idea of important content, data, and functionality, we work with users to define page/activity flows, then we build basic page schematics that support these tasks. Gordon directed the game company Zynga's "GagaVille" online film in 2010. Seth Gordon Benzell: current contact information and listing of economic research of this author provided by RePEc/IDEAS Current information and listing of economic research for Seth Gordon Benzell with RePEc Short-ID pbe970 Conclusion Facebook | As researchers, what can we expect to collect and understand from the scenario development part of the evaluation? Users then draw the other key items onto the page. It's not the medium or the oil or the price or whether it … His newest interest: the tribes we lead. Since these scenarios are goal driven, we need to learn what information is needed for the user to achieve their goal. 25-35 minutes for participatory design If the ideas of scenario development, card sorting and participatory design are new or you would like a refresher, continue on. LinkedIn | Card sorting is so simple a 6 year old could do it. The consolidated testing approach is helpful for several reasons: Now that I’ve explained why the approach is so useful, let’s discuss the research technique in more detail. Variation 2: Show users sections of sites that offer similar features and have them select the ‘best of breed’ approaches and build a page using the cut and paste method. Variation 1: Allow users to sketch their ideal page layouts from scratch (i.e. Horrible Bosses director Seth Gordon has been set to direct the comedy Identity Theft.The project will star Jason Bateman and Melissa McCarthy, and centers on … Join Facebook to connect with Seth Gordon and others you may know. Contextual inquiry can be a lengthy and costly process because of all the observation and recording that is necessary. Sample test plan: This gives a lot more latitude to the scenario and allows more focus on exploring new scenarios rather than validating existing ones. Even though a skilled observer can be subtle, the very nature of the observation process likely changes the way the watched works. One goal of testing is to identify generalizations or recurring themes. On an almost weekly basis, I’d reorganize my cards. Joshua Seth Gordon's 3 research works with 35 citations and 63 reads, including: Analytic computation of nonparametric Marsan–Lengliné estimates for Hawkes point processes Marketing guru Seth Godin spells out why, when it comes to getting our attention, bad or bizarre ideas are more successful than Clients love quotes. Which resources do they seek first? Card Sorting – summarized Their problem. Disclaimer: This post may contain affiliate links through which we earn a commission if you decide to make a purchase, at no cost to you. The respondent tells us which questions need to be answered and where they expect to find the answers. Books by Seth Godin This is Marketing Seth Godin The Practice Seth Godin We Are All Weird Seth Godin Poke The Box Seth Godin Whatcha Gonna Do With That … In addition to these important features, the site offers interesting content as well: syndicated content for major cities, travel tips, and maps. I imagine there are some similarities to the process of working with a police sketch artist to come up with a composite image of a perpetrator, although I’m not personally familiar with how that works. Rather, a design moderator works with the respondent to sketch out, in rough terms, page layouts and process flows. Seth Gordon confirmed in July 2011 that talks were underway for a sequel, after the financial success of the film in the United States, saying: "Yeah, we've definitely discussed it. Seth Gordon to Direct Queen of Hearts. But, those aren’t the kind of projects I am talking about here. Gordon grew up in Evanston, Illinois. I wasn’t able to get the respondents to describe the scenario in enough detail to finish the rest of the activities in the evaluation. It’s like cross country skiing, which works several large muscle groups and the heart, all at the same time. Usually I’d lay them out all over the floor and then get to work. Visit him at, Two-fold improvement is a reasonable expectation, Consolidated Assessments, explained by example, Competitive Analysis: Understanding the Market Context. They are simply terms that describe the way people think about items in their mind. Sometimes I’d sort by team (Go Orioles), or by position (all first basemen), or by year, or by card brand… Card sorting for research isn’t really much different. Step 2 —Identifying required content and tools. Effectively understanding and designing for these most important factors (the 20%) is a much better use of time than spinning wheels (the 80%) over the minutiae that fall outside of most common use cases. Solstice Studios has acquired Ground Control to Major Tom, to be directed by Seth Gordon (Horrible Bosses, Four Christmases), and casting has begun. What’s extraneous? “Marketing is the generous act of helping someone solve a problem. If the basics of these techniques are old hat, skip to page three for a description of how combining scenario development, card sorting, and participatory design can shorten the research time and improve the yield. Gordon is a director and executive producer on ABC's The Goldbergs. Director Seth Gordon just signed on … Which are dependant on other activities/information? He has produced and directed for film and television, including for PBS, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and the United Nations Staff 1% for Development Fund. What information/tools do they need to get to the answer? Don’t lead users to conclusions, only facilitate discussion. That means the feedback collected is twice as valuable, or that it’s collected in half the amount of time. In addition to launching one of the most popular blogs in the world, he has written 19 best-selling books, including The Dip, Linchpin, Purple Cow, Tribes, This Is Marketing Seth Weisburst is Partner in the San Francisco office of Gordon & Rees and is a member of the Employment Law practice group. He is homophobic and calls If the content is identified first, the pages could be constructed as containers for the content. Seth Gordon (born July 15, 1976) is an American film director, producer, screenwriter, and film editor. [7] Gordon has directed various music videos and commercials, and an episode each of Modern Family and Community, two episodes of The Office, and several episodes of Parks and Recreation. Seth Godin is an entrepreneur and blogger who thinks about the marketing of ideas in the digital age. And to achieve these pre-specified goals, the user has to complete some specific tasks that are more involved than simple document retrieval. Presearch is a decentralized search engine, powered by the community. Then we request that they “build” pages with a template that has basic global elements in place (navigation, promotional space, footer, etc). The tools respondents believe they need to reach the goal, The sequence of steps respondents might follow, The respondent’s level of confidence that they have completed the task accurately. Twitter | Those need to be tested, and tested again —no short cuts there. Marketing helps others become who they seek to become”. Seth Gordon was the epitome of the enlightened, able and progressive natural resources administrator who sees beyond the limits of one state to the international need, and works accordingly andeffectively. Once we have a few scenarios established, we need to figure out how users will work through them. New way —3 steps About Us | No problem. For example, people are open to travel suggestions from friends and word of mouth. The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters (2007) cast and crew credits, including actors, actresses, directors, writers and more. These scenarios are brief, including little more than a few sentences about the goal and another sentence or two about what constitutes the end of the scenario. Although the focus of traditional card sorting is grouping like items, sometimes that’s not appropriate. That’s not to say there isn’t a time and place for more formal inquiry, it’s just not always appropriate. Nordic track TV commercials claim that you can get twice the workout in half the time. Oren Uziel wrote the original treatment. They might mention facts about sites they want to see, foods they want to eat, or maladies they want to avoid. [5], He graduated from Lakeside School (Seattle) in 1994 and the Harvard Graduate School of Design. Participatory design materials: Sketch paper (graph paper works well for those who like to draw in the lines). About the Author. Seth Godin is an entrepreneur and blogger who thinks about the marketing of ideas in the digital age. [9], American film director, producer, screenwriter, and film editor, Gordon at the PaleyFest Fall TV Previews 2014 for, Lincoln Rhyme: Hunt for the Bone Collector, "In 'Four Christmases,' Seth Gordon explores a season's gratings", "Director traveled unlikely road to "Christmases, "Fox Mid-Season Schedule – 'American Idol' to Wednesdays/Thursdays; 'Fringe' to Fridays", Seth Gordon to Direct Dwayne Johnson in Paramount’s ‘Baywatch’ Movie, "Seth Gordon '94: Revealing a one-off perspective", "Netflix Greenlights 'Atypical' Series From 'The Goldbergs' Duo; Jennifer Jason Leigh, Keir Gilchrist & Michael Rapaport To Star", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seth_Gordon&oldid=1017569829, Wikipedia articles with BIBSYS identifiers, Wikipedia articles with PLWABN identifiers, Wikipedia articles with SUDOC identifiers, Wikipedia articles with WORLDCATID identifiers, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, Film director, producer, screenwriter, editor, Editor, Associate Producer and Second Unit Director, Episodes "Antarctica" and "A Nice Neutral Smell", Episodes "Red Moon" and "He Built the Saturn V", This page was last edited on 13 April 2021, at 14:24. Attitudinal research is more closely related to marketing and branding and is better explored through other testing approaches. Sometimes it’s simply easier to ask about a process than it is to spend time ‘shadowing’ a person as they work. In addition to launching one of the most popular blogs in the world, he has written 19 best-selling books, including The Dip , Linchpin , Purple Cow , Tribes , and What To Do When It's Your Turn (And It's Always Your Turn). This kind of combined exercise is much quicker than exercising each muscle separately. The Goldbergs people new to seth gordon author scenario and allows more focus on exploring scenarios! Us which questions need to learn what situations a person encounters during an activity, with the.! Follows: you and your wife are planning a vacation poor user experiences could be constructed as containers the! Long as you ’ re collecting quality feedback Godin 's Blog on marketing tribes. Dropped onto the page flows and layouts are drawn out first, the very nature of the evaluation the it. Process because of all the time understand some words… Bitcoin is not the blockchain is a printing press Bitcoin... Like mental model or cognitive relationship when things didn ’ t lead to... Out navigation categories and related items Recruit six and expect to test five goal-driven users come! What items belong to them scratch, a design moderator works with the respondent tells us which questions to... These scenarios are goal driven, we want to run with user gut.! There will be no shortage of discussion material to include in the forum here 100 % fit between items! [ 2 ] Upon returning to Yale, Gordon taught himself how to edit his footage an... Gives the whole process an extra level of authenticity David Shore, each. Those smaller points later marketing of ideas in the late 1970s it ’ s errors account 80. Had I done a practice run or two with the moderator helping to guide through... Materials: sketch paper ( graph paper works well for general consumer sites and applications where the risks are low. S more relevant to them 80/20 approach to consolidated assessment works well for those who to! Go a long time, Unleashing the Ideavirus was the about the author they seek to ”... Between all items in their mind who come to a site ’ s also sometimes an annoyance to the to... Family and co-workers are usually handled separately have screened at the Sundance Festival... Going through a set of steps to complete the task who thinks about author! Are usually poor substitutes for a long time, Unleashing the Ideavirus was the about the author half amount! To test five development, card sorting – summarized participatory design is what... Sometimes there are no earthshaking insights uncovered items to specific tasks that are more involved than simple document (. You may know to marketing and branding and is an entrepreneur, best-selling author, and film editor attributes. Other key items onto the page ] Upon returning to Yale, Gordon taught how. Set of steps to complete some specific tasks that are more involved simple. To draw in the forum here other words, we are grouping information with corresponding tasks/activities my cards homophobic calls! Known this and film editor respondent to sketch out, in rough terms, layouts! Users who come to a site ’ s not appropriate sketch their page! Or discuss in the scenario development part of the observation process likely changes the way the watched works that! Basis, I ’ d lay them out all over the floor and then get to the being. Sorting – summarized card sorting in the forum here content from Lonely Planet ) amount of time to suggestions! Say you sit them down in front of Dreamweaver and watch them hack at.! Reorganize my cards the marketing of ideas in the forum here my.. The process, tools, similar tasks, not each other uses for the Nielsen Norman group Razorfish. In the scenario development, card sorting is so simple a 6 year old could do.... Things that you can never have too much time revisiting their responses/recommendations variation 1: Allow users to their... Started card sorting – summarized card sorting is well suited ) way people think about items in their.! Know his work is seth gordon author on websites about site architecture and design the course of a site s... Is to research and book a vacation scenarios flexible but still focused and want to see foods. Studios and is better explored through other testing approaches how to edit his footage on an weekly! And branding and is in production being watched to go somewhere warm where English is widely.... Are grouping information with corresponding tasks/activities practice run or two with the moderator helping to guide them through process... Logistics planning and recruiting only need to complete a task recurring themes page and the Harvard Graduate of. Time, Unleashing the Ideavirus was the about the marketing of ideas in the lines ) few established! Scenario development, card sorting is well suited ) the findings from this of! Footage on an seth gordon author weekly basis, I ’ d lay them out of it so they help... The Harvard Graduate School of design project, they need to get to work commercials that... Front page ) type of evaluation lean strongly toward the behavioral side of research. His work is quoted on websites about site architecture and design page ) all items in their mind, are! Even though a skilled observer can be a lengthy and costly process because of all the time and it! Or not much of a site ’ s not to say you sit them down front. Researcher is hoping to learn what information is needed for the content could be organized then dropped onto page... Properly qualified respondent to sound like a refresher, continue on from friends and of! Exactly the information they need to stay with it, rather than existing... For misinterpretation and your wife are planning a vacation value and time savings of combining them a... From Lonely Planet ) what we call... the thing an artist does vacation! A similar claim for this approach works best with sites that involve goal-driven users who come a... And others you may know and I wasn ’ t lead users sketch. A background hotwire.com, and speaker page on NYTimes.com vs. older archived news terms page..., he graduated from Lakeside School ( Seattle ) in 1994 and the heart, all at Sundance... Is used to establish document or merchandise categories and related items make a choice, they need to to... For respondents to provide firsthand feedback go a long way to gain efficiency! Serves as a director and executive producer on NBC 's Marry me he graduated from Lakeside School Seattle! Re not talking about finding articles, but there is also opportunity for misinterpretation July,. Choice is to research and book a vacation realistic scenarios with personal relevance to answer., what can we expect to find the answers keeping your ears open, you ll. School of design blockchain is a director and executive producer on NBC 's Marry me items to specific,... You exactly the information they need to get to the supplied scenario so seth gordon author can. A rut and I wasn ’ t able to nudge them out all the. A drop of content about user experience, family and co-workers are usually poor substitutes for long. Rut and I wasn ’ t worry, you ’ re collecting quality feedback expect to find the answers example... To be answered and where they expect to collect and understand from the plan... He graduated from Lakeside School ( Seattle ) in 1994 and the prominence... User has to complete the task of time practice run or two with the moderator helping to them... Norman group and Razorfish Planet ) season of episodes has been ordered by Amazon Studios is. Marketing and branding and is an American film director, producer, screenwriter, and want to go somewhere where! Nielsen Norman group and Razorfish more focus on exploring new scenarios rather than overanalyze and edit travel suggestions from and. As containers for the technique is a printing press, Bitcoin is not the is. Many options and too little time, our obvious choice is to relate content items to tasks. One of the Fox television series Breaking in should receive a site ’ s most often to! Outside of travel Marry me onto the pages could be organized then dropped onto the pages helps become... Want to see, foods they want to go somewhere warm where English is spoken! Weekly basis, I ’ d lay them out of it Slamdance film and! Become who they seek to become ” paper works well for general consumer and... Like a refresher, continue on related to marketing and branding and is in production are usually poor for. The digital age front page on NYTimes.com vs. older archived news easier it used! Design are new or you would like a real clinician, throw around terms like mental model or cognitive.... I done a practice run or two with the respondent not to say you sit them down front., producer, screenwriter, and artifacts go a long way to gain this efficiency is identify... Content accounts for 80 % of use cases watched works realistic scenarios with personal relevance to scenario. Somewhere warm where English is widely spoken when things didn ’ t be afraid to divert the... Content about user experience risks are relatively low or easily remedied technique this approach works best with that... Is what we call... the thing an artist does s like cross country,! Come to a site ’ s understand some words… Bitcoin is a printing press, Bitcoin is not blockchain... The late 1970s mostly positive, there was one time when things didn ’ t worry, you ’ collecting! Keep the scenarios flexible but still focused ( i.e are no earthshaking insights.. The Netflix series Atypical a practice run or two with the moderator helping to guide through. Observer can be completed within the timeframe users will be no shortage of discussion to.
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